PSCS3 update, now printing issues

[Jeff JTPhoto]

Updated PSCS3 last night and have since had major problems printing images processed in either ProPhotoRGB or AdobeRGB color space. Printed Images come out very desaturated almost sepia tone. Everything has to be converted to sRGB to get the color. BTW the images still look fine on my monitor. Both printers output the same from either laptop, have done the swop to check. All printer setting checked and remain exactly the same as before CS3 updates.
FYI 8bit sRGB jpeg images print exactly as they look on the monitor as do the images converted from ProPhoto or Adobe to sRGB...

System specs:
2 Dell Laptops, one running XP, one running VISTA.
2 Printers, one Canon i9900, one ip4000

PS when I upgraded from CS2 to CS3 there was a couple minor color shifts that affected print but nothing a little tweak couldn't deal with, but this is a major change. Tweaks cannot compensate for the total loss in color.

[beaucamera]

Jeff, I'm confused.
You can't print anything, even moderately accurate, without using a printer profile.
Every printer profile is unique to the paper you are printing on.

Before you print, make a duplicate of your final image.
Then, in PS, convert to the printer profile you want to use.
Now your print should match your monitor, provided you have profiled that too.

Is this how you have been making your prints?

Virginia
aka beaucamera

[Jeff JTPhoto]

Virginia, profiles aren't the problem unfortunately. The problem is within this last update for CS3. What I see on my monitor is what I get for images printed in the sRGB color space, however if I try and print an image in ProPhotoRGB or AdobeRGB there is virtually no color. Again these images all look great on the monitor.
If it was a profile issue all images would come out incorrect. What bothers me is that both computers and both printers are putting out exactly the same, so this is not just a random hick-up.

As for the printer profile I have profiles built within the Canon driver whose output ( DID MATCH) matches my monitors. My Canon printers (8 color) control color management hence I am able to take advantage of printing the wider color gamut of 16bit ProPhotoRGB or 16bit AdobeRGB. By converting to a printer profile from PS you loose the ability to print in the larger colorspaces...

Just wondering if anyone else was having these issues...

[Rudi]

Interesting! Unfortunately, I know nothing about Windows, but it seems as if something is broken, not talking to BOTH XP and Vista (That is the interesting bit!). I remember having some issues with Photoshop (colour space issues) when I still used Windows, and the only way to fix these was to uninstall and then reinstall Photoshop. If you can't figure it out, this might be something to try... in the meantime, I would go on the Adobe support forums, and ask there. Good luck!

[Jeff JTPhoto]

Thanks Rudi.. My thoughts exactly unfortunately since installing CS3 there has been no less then 300mb of updates and I would really hate to have to go through that again on my sloowww dial up.

Already posted on Adobe forums hopefully I'll get some info there...

[Rudi]

I forgot about you dial-up! ;( If nothing else, you might want to hook up with someone in your area, who has high speed Internet. I'm sure one of the Pixel-Shooters would help out (I would if you were closer :D).

[beaucamera]

As for the printer profile I have profiles built within the Canon driver whose output ( DID MATCH) matches my monitors. My Canon printers (8 color) control color management hence I am able to take advantage of printing the wider color gamut of 16bit ProPhotoRGB or 16bit AdobeRGB. By converting to a printer profile from PS you loose the ability to print in the larger colorspaces...



Sorry to disagree with you, Jeff.
You can only print whatever you printer is capable of on whatever media you print it on.

How you captured/processed the image has nothing to do with what the printer will do with it.
The color spaces of the camera and printer are different.

Be careful you are not double profiling.
If you are using the print driver, then you have to make sure you're not also applying a profile in PS.
You can only let the device or PS, one not both, do the profiling job.

Color management is a tricky thing.
One thing you might do is to see if there is an updated driver for your printer.
I don't know if this is the issue or not, but it might be worth a try.

Virginia
aka beaucamera

[Jeff JTPhoto]

Sorry to disagree with you, Jeff.
You can only print whatever you printer is capable of on whatever media you print it on.

I agree totally Virginia..



How you captured/processed the image has nothing to do with what the printer will do with it.
The color spaces of the camera and printer are different.



This is where I disagree. If you don't process for the wider color gamut ie: ProPhotoRGB it is lost, so even if your printer can use it its just not there.


Be careful you are not double profiling.
If you are using the print driver, then you have to make sure you're not also applying a profile in PS.
You can only let the device or PS, one not both, do the profiling job.


Thank you for the heads up but, as I was saying earlier only the Printer manages the color so in essence it is converting the profile itself. The problem really is that it worked yesterday and today after the update it does not. In the instance of the Canon printers changing to the printer profiles in PS doesn't work for consistent color.

So where are you using the paper profiles? In the printer set up or in Convert to profile in PS.


Color management is a tricky thing.
One thing you might do is to see if there is an updated driver for your printer.
I don't know if this is the issue or not, but it might be worth a try.


I agree 100% Virginia it is tricky and for 3 years its been a non issue for me through thousands of prints with this set up, unfortunately, overnight with one simple update 2 computers and 2 different canon printers no longer print the same. There maybe a driver update but both printers suffer the same problem so I doubt the drivers will help.

Thanks for your time Virginia and good info, I appreciate your input and will continue to work through this until I find a solution. Good thing I don't have any big print jobs waiting...

[beaucamera]

The problem really is that it worked yesterday and today after the update it does not.

This is why I suggested you see if there is an updated printer driver for your printer. I use CS3, but haven't printed anything since the update. If you want to send me a file via email, I'd be happy to see if I have the same issue.

In the instance of the Canon printers changing to the printer profiles in PS doesn't work for consistent color.


I don't understand this, Jeff. If you use the PS profile and the same paper, you should obtain consistent color by using the PS convert to profile on your image. To avoid double profiling, though, you have to tell the printer not to manage color.


So where are you using the paper profiles? In the printer set up or in Convert to profile in PS.


It can be done either way, just not both.
If you printer has a profile built in for the paper you want to use, you can do that.
If you have to make a profile for a paper that isn't built-in, then you'd need to use PS.

There is an explanation for what you are observing.
It's just going to take some time to figure it out.

Virginia
aka beaucamera

P.S. The textbook for the Color Management class I took was "Real World Color Management" by Bruce Frazer, Chris Murphy and Fred Bunting (Peachpit Press). This is a difficult subject, I know.

[mdephoto]

I posted this earlier in response to another query but try this from Dr Brown ..... http://av.adobe.com/russellbrown/3800PrintingSM.mov

It is for the Epson 3800 but I think you will find a lot that will apply for your situation....

[Jeff JTPhoto]

It can be done either way, just not both.
If you printer has a profile built in for the paper you want to use, you can do that.
If you have to make a profile for a paper that isn't built-in, then you'd need to use PS.

Virginia
aka beaucamera


Thanks Virginia

Will have to check out the Bruce Fraser book..

OK, this is where I am unsure. Do I convert to the paper profile in PS itself from Convert to Profile or in Print Preview dialogue where it says let Photoshop manage color.

In the printer dialogue I can turn off ICM, but I still have to choose a paper type, quality, etc. Does choosing a paper type not affect the output?

[beaucamera]

OK, this is where I am unsure. Do I convert to the paper profile in PS itself from Convert to Profile or in Print Preview dialogue where it says let Photoshop manage color.


Jeff, you convert the image file to PS profile for the paper you are going to print on (profiles are specific to both paper and printer) in PS.

In the Print Preview dialogue you choose no color management. This is because you've already given the file a color space you want to print in. Basically this converts the image color information from RBG to the CMYK equivalent your printer can understand.

You can also choose the rendering intent, but just use the default to start.

I don't do much printing so, when I get an oddly colored print, I have to go back and see what I did. More often than not, it's because I made the wrong choices in the setting up my print.

There are profiling services you can use to get a profile for the paper and printer.

Virginia
aka beaucamera

P.S. I have something called the Eye-one Pro I use for profiling. There's a newer version of this (maybe it's renamed, I can't tell from the X-Rite's website.) This is one of their lower end systems, so you have to use a chart to manually sample colors.

http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=790

[Jeff JTPhoto]

I posted this earlier in response to another query but try this from Dr Brown ..... http://av.adobe.com/russellbrown/3800PrintingSM.mov

It is for the Epson 3800 but I think you will find a lot that will apply for your situation....

Thanks Mike
This video definitely helped with the printer settings..

[Jeff JTPhoto]

OK progress so far.
Watching the Dr. Brown video + tips from Virginia got me on the way.
Paper profiles are in. ICM in printer dialogue turned off and photoshop is managing the color through the Print Preview. In this method I don't have to convert to profile every image before printing. So far so good. Will try the other method later.

Thanks All!

[beaucamera]

OK progress so far.
In this method I don't have to convert to profile every image before printing. So far so good. Will try the other method later.

Thanks All!

Jeff, if I understand what you are doing, this is not correct, .
You need to make a duplicate copy of your final image and convert to the profile you want in PS.

Then, in the printer dialog box, you need to deselect any color management (make it none) by the printer.

Virginia
aka beaucamera

[Jeff JTPhoto]

You need to make a duplicate copy of your final image and convert to the profile you want in PS.

Then, in the printer dialog box, you need to deselect any color management (make it none) by the printer.

Virginia
aka beaucamera

Sorry, guess I didn't explain properly. Yes in the Printer Dialogue box ICM (color management) is shut off. As I understand from the Dr. Brown video the profile change is being done in the PS Print Preview Dialogue for the photo you want to print so there is no need to duplicate the image and convert to profile. So actually this is probably the same process that you are doing Virginia, but instead of the conversion taking place in the PhotoShop window with Convert to Profile it takes place in PhotoShops Print Preview Dialogue.

If you get a chance check out this small video that Mike posted http://av.adobe.com/russellbrown/3800PrintingSM.mov . It shows what I am talking about. The reason I chose this method first was for workflow purposes. At times I must process to print hundreds of photos and having to duplicate every image and convert to profile is just not effective. However, in the PS Print Preview Dialogue you enter the paper profile once and it is then set for all images as long as you stay with the same paper of course.

[beaucamera]

Sorry, guess I didn't explain properly. Yes in the Printer Dialogue box ICM (color management) is shut off. As I understand from the Dr. Brown video the profile change is being done in the PS Print Preview Dialogue for the photo you want to print so there is no need to duplicate the image and convert to profile. So actually this is probably the same process that you are doing Virginia, but instead of the conversion taking place in the PhotoShop window with Convert to Profile it takes place in PhotoShops Print Preview Dialogue.

Good, Jeff. I hope this means you are able to print from PS3 and get the results expected. For batch printing what you suggest will undoubtedly work. From a work flow perspective, however, it's best to keep a master and make profile changes on a copy.



If you get a chance check out this small video that Mike posted http://av.adobe.com/russellbrown/3800PrintingSM.mov .

Jeff, I'm glad you found the video useful.
You should, when you get the time, review more of Ray Brown's tutorials.
He has a lot of useful tips.

Here's a picture of me with the good Dr. himself.
I thought you might get a kick out this!
:biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:

http://www.pbase.com/beaucamera/image/73196128

Virginia
aka beaucamera

[Rudi]

Jeff, you are correct - you do NOT need to convert every image for printing!

I print my images (which are in ProPhoto RGB colour space, and 16-bit) through Photoshop. When printing, I select "Photoshop manages colour", then select the paper profile in the drop down list, with "Perceptual" as the rendering intent. The only thing to remember, you have to turn off colour management in the printer driver (Photoshop is already doing it :) ).

I repeat: YOU DO NOT NEED TO CONVERT EVERY IMAGE FOR PRINTING! As far as workflow is concerned, you can save different settings for different papers in CS3, so it actually speeds up the process (rather than converting all your images for printing).

[Jeff JTPhoto]

Latest info from Adobe on my situation. Seems that sometimes when you do updates your prefs get corrupted the setting look as if they are set the same but they are not. To correct the problem simple search for and delete the .psp file . Then Go back into Photoshop and reset your preferences. They tell me that any erratic behavior or unexplained changes after an update is attributed to this..

Thanks for your help in this matter...

[beaucamera]

Latest info from Adobe on my situation. Seems that sometimes when you do updates your prefs get corrupted the setting look as if they are set the same but they are not. To correct the problem simple search for and delete the .psp file . Then Go back into Photoshop and reset your preferences. They tell me that any erratic behavior or unexplained changes after an update is attributed to this..

Thanks for your help in this matter...

Thanks for the update, Jeff.
I'm happy you were able to determine what the problem was and how to fix it.

Now, Let's hope it doesn't happen again!

Virginia
aka beaucamera

[Jeff JTPhoto]

Thanks again Virginia..

At least next time I'll know where to start looking...

For more info here is a reply I got from John Joslin a Adobe forums. The link he provides takes you to a post that goes into a little more depth and helps you find your psp file.

John Joslin - 12:12am Jan 2, 08 PST (#3 of 4)

It is not that the preferences as seen in the Photoshop program dialog change. One of the pref files* can become corrupted due to a variety of reasons and the only cure for inexplicable behaviour is to reset them in accordance with the FAQ.

http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.ef4a07f/1

Even a re-install will not reset prefrences, since these are written after the installation log is written.

* here: C:\Documents and Settings\user name\Application Data\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop CS3\Adobe Photoshop CS3 Settings