Lets talk M mode?

[Jonathan]

I am still at a loss Kevin:) Admittedly I haven't "forum researched this." Basically the way I see it its time consuming. What is the difference when I can use A or S with some EV comp? I can still expose for the whites or blacks and I am dialed in to exactly what I want. Main reason I ask is I have stumbled across a few more nature pros that shoot this way. As an aside Jim Zuckerman does not. Mostly in reference to Wildlife .



Discuss.......fight1; fight1; :banned1:

[Harv]

Watching this thread to see what the Big 'K' has to say.

I started to shoot in manual after checking my histogram and viewing my subject. Originally I did this for shooting birds in flight and had to expose to a degree for the underside. What I experienced was that as I swing through different points on the compass when shooting birds, often the light values would change. This also happened if the sun ducked in and out of the clouds. I would often end up with both under- and over-exposed shots. I had trouble keeping up with constantly checking and changing settings as the light changed.

I have since changed to establishing the AV that I want, crank in some + or - EV as needed and make sure I had the ISO high enough to get the needed shutter speeds. I know that on my camera, I can also enable safety shift so that I don't lose a shot if I find I'm outside the recommended range of values. This seems to work for me. At least to the degree that my talent allows.

[dmwphoto]

Johnathan
In my opinion there are reasons for both methods. When I shoot wildlife I use aperture priority and adjust EV as required. It is faster, allows me to control depth of field and the camera control the shutter. I often "babysit" the camera by adjusting ISO so that the shutter speed is in an acceptable range to produce the sharpness that I am after.
For Macro, and all of my scenic work I prefer Manual. I typically use spot metering for these and take my time. I can make very subtle adjustments with both shutter and aperture to achieve the EXACT result I am seeking. It is not unusual for me to take many exposures of a scene with very minor differences in my settings. It is something you should read up on and definately experiment with to determine what is right for you.
f/8 @ 1/125th of a second is exactly the same as f/11 @ 1/60th of a second with respect to the amount of light but will yield very differnt results.

[Kevin]

I think the biggest difference is whether you want full control or you want the camera to make some of the decisions for you. In M mode, you have full control whereas in A mode you don't necessarily. You do, I suppose when you start to dial in EC.

I think another distinction is what metering mode you use. Normally I'm in Center Weighted mode as I shoot birds (larger ones) most often. I also shoot a lot of white birds and have found that matrix or evaluative will often cause overexposure of the white bird. By using a smaller area for metering, my results are more consistant.

Here's what i do. I choose an area of the scene to use as a metering point then make a conscious decision how I want the sensor to record that area. If I want it to be "middle grey" I change my shutter or aperture values until the meter "needle" is at 0. Recompose, focus and shoot. Then I know that for that exposure, the area I metered against will be exactly how I wanted it to be.

Alternately, in that decision making process, I may want it lighter or darker than middle grey. If it's a Little Blue Heron, or a shaded area, I adjust my settings so my meter "needle" is lower, like -1 for example. If it's a white bird, or sunny area, I'll adjust my S & A until the "needle" is +1 or more, depending on "how white" I want that particular area to be.

Since reading a nature photography book prior to my trip, this "zone method" of decision making has made shooting manual crystal clear and allowed me to meter correctly while shooting in an environment I was totally unfamiliar with (landscapes) with very consistant results. Had I been shooting birds as I did before reading this book I would have known from experience roughly what my settings were, set them, taken a test shot and watched my blinkies.

Now, I have even more confidence employing this "zone" method of metering and knowing that I can consistantly produce close to perfect exposures. Keyword being "consistantly". Perfect meaning in how I wanted the scene to be interpreted.

Hopefully this will make sense. If not, holler and I'll expound with some other examples.

[Jonathan]

Watching this thread to see what the Big 'K' has to say.

I started to shoot in manual after checking my histogram and viewing my subject. Originally I did this for shooting birds in flight and had to expose to a degree for the underside. What I experienced was that as I swing through different points on the compass when shooting birds, often the light values would change. This also happened if the sun ducked in and out of the clouds. I would often end up with both under- and over-exposed shots. I had trouble keeping up with constantly checking and changing settings as the light changed.
I seem to run into the same things. I might see M mode weighing in as advantageous. I suppose one could meter of the scene and not change the setting after that. Normally In this case I simply have been trying to dial in EV..


I have since changed to establishing the AV that I want, crank in some + or - EV as needed and make sure I had the ISO high enough to get the needed shutter speeds. I know that on my camera, I can also enable safety shift so that I don't lose a shot if I find I'm outside the recommended range of values. This seems to work for me. At least to the degree that my talent allows.

:) ditto

[Jonathan]

Johnathan
In my opinion there are reasons for both methods. When I shoot wildlife I use aperture priority and adjust EV as required. It is faster, allows me to control depth of field and the camera control the shutter. I often "babysit" the camera by adjusting ISO so that the shutter speed is in an acceptable range to produce the sharpness that I am after.
For Macro, and all of my scenic work I prefer Manual. I typically use spot metering for these and take my time. I can make very subtle adjustments with both shutter and aperture to achieve the EXACT result I am seeking. It is not unusual for me to take many exposures of a scene with very minor differences in my settings. It is something you should read up on and definately experiment with to determine what is right for you.
f/8 @ 1/125th of a second is exactly the same as f/11 @ 1/60th of a second with respect to the amount of light but will yield very differnt results.

I also shoot M for macro and at the moment seem to agree with the speed that A or S gives me for certian scenes while shooting wildlife. More to ponder:) thanks

[Jonathan]

I think the biggest difference is whether you want full control or you want the camera to make some of the decisions for you. In M mode, you have full control whereas in A mode you don't necessarily. You do, I suppose when you start to dial in EC..

Kevin, this is the crux of the problem for me. Your subtle hints though in this sentence seem to suggest that they are not equal.

I think another distinction is what metering mode you use. Normally I'm in Center Weighted mode as I shoot birds (larger ones) most often. I also shoot a lot of white birds and have found that matrix or evaluative will often cause overexposure of the white bird. By using a smaller area for metering, my results are more consistant.

When I can get birds in 3/4 the viewfinder I am also in centerwieght mode. Now I do have some varying results depending on how quick to think I am with my EV. Normally as you have indicated below -EV white +EV black...get rid of the gray;)


Here's what i do. I choose an area of the scene to use as a metering point then make a conscious decision how I want the sensor to record that area. If I want it to be "middle grey" I change my shutter or aperture values until the meter "needle" is at 0. Recompose, focus and shoot. Then I know that for that exposure, the area I metered against will be exactly how I wanted it to be.

Alternately, in that decision making process, I may want it lighter or darker than middle grey. If it's a Little Blue Heron, or a shaded area, I adjust my settings so my meter "needle" is lower, like -1 for example. If it's a white bird, or sunny area, I'll adjust my S & A until the "needle" is +1 or more, depending on "how white" I want that particular area to be.

Since reading a nature photography book prior to my trip, this "zone method" of decision making has made shooting manual crystal clear and allowed me to meter correctly while shooting in an environment I was totally unfamiliar with (landscapes) with very consistant results. Had I been shooting birds as I did before reading this book I would have known from experience roughly what my settings were, set them, taken a test shot and watched my blinkies.

Now, I have even more confidence employing this "zone" method of metering and knowing that I can consistantly produce close to perfect exposures. Keyword being "consistantly". Perfect meaning in how I wanted the scene to be interpreted.

Hopefully this will make sense. If not, holler and I'll expound with some other examples.

Care to elaborate on the book name:) Now you are metering off the enviroment in center wieght? Why are you not using spot for this or is it simply becuase you are usually metering of the bird(in which case I understand center).

See my response to harv...the situation he describes make sense as to why M would work better. Otherwise i am still at a lost for the advantage.

Thanks

[Jonathan]

Tell me if this makes since. I am shooting a animal(or similar) and the sun it peaking in and out of the clouds causing slight change in exposure. Now lets say it is a white subject. I have dialed in some +EV to expose the white but with the constant change in light my results will vary..using centerweight and EV comp or similar. Now take the same case with M mode I evaluate the same bird again with but in this case make the "needle" around plus 1 for the white. In theory that will always be exposed as the white on the bird no matter the change in light:)

did I get it?

[Harv]

Tell me if this makes since. I am shooting a animal(or similar) and the sun it peaking in and out of the clouds causing slight change in exposure. Now lets say it is a white subject. I have dialed in some -EV to expose the white but with the constant change in light my results will vary..using centerweight and EV comp or similar. Now take the same case with M mode I evaluate the same bird again with but in this case make the "needle" around plus 1 for the white. In theory that will always be exposed as the white on the bird no matter the change in light:)

did I get it?

Actually, to properly expose white, you need to dial in +EV, possibly 1 or more stops. Otherwise the camera will expose the white as 18% grey.

I think you may have misunderstood me, Jonathan. If the light value changes, so does the amount of light falling on the subject as a rule. This is where I use AV, not M. This allows the value to move along with the changing amount of light while keeping the compensation for the white consistent.

Clear as mud?

[Jonathan]

Actually, to properly expose white, you need to dial in +EV, possibly 1 or more stops. Otherwise the camera will expose the white as 18% grey.

I think you may have misunderstood me, Jonathan. If the light value changes, so does the amount of light falling on the subject as a rule. This is where I use AV, not M. This allows the value to move along with the changing amount of light while keeping the compensation for the white consistent.

Clear as mud?

Opps yeah mistype I understand you;)

[Harv]

Opps yeah mistype I understand you;)

Cool.

[Jonathan]

Cool.

Yeah doesent really help me when I make typo's like that:D ;)

As of right now I am not seeing the M "light"

[Kevin]

Yeah doesent really help me when I make typo's like that:D ;)

As of right now I am not seeing the M "light"

You will, young padawan, you will. ;)

There was a great thread at NC about this subject. I'll see if I can find it and refer you to it. It was a couple of months ago.

But here's a situation where M really pays off. I'm at Gatorland and I've taken a couple of test shots and have my shutter speed and aperture values dialed in shooting M. All of a sudden, I look up and see a beautiful Great White Egret flying through the sky. The sky is blue (which is what I metered off of initially) but has some white puffy clouds. I immediately lock focus on the bird, knowing that my exposure is correct. I continue to track the GWE as he makes his landing aproach. Oh oh....he's below the tree line. What do you suppose would happen if you were in A mode? (or S mode?) What do you think will happen in M mode?

Answer? In A or S mode, regardless of what metering you're using, the "scene" has suddenly changed from bright blue sky to now dark green foliage. Your meter is going to adjust your shutter speed to bring that dark green foliage up in lightness. What happens next? You previously beautifully exposed GWE is now going to blow! You better be quick with your EV adjustments cuz he's landing fast!!

So, what happens in M mode? Absolutely nothing! Nothing gets changed on the camera unless you deliberately change it. What does this mean? Your beautiful GWE that was exposed so perfectly against the bright blue sky will still be beautifully exposed as he descends below the tree line and ultimately comes to a rest.

End result? You shooting A or S mode will have a big white blob on your CF card because the camera got fooled by the changing background. You'll have a couple of sky shots to post. Me, meanwhile, will have a CF card full of properly exposed GWEs flying gracefully in the sky, pumping his wings as he prepares to land, and a landing sequence complete with flared wings in every imaginable position. Boy! I'm going to be busy processing my shots! ;)

Don't believe me? We'll test it out at Gatorland when you come. You'll see!

Short answer to your previous question of "what benefit?" Answer: Control!!

Now granted, if the light is going in and out of the clouds and is in a state of influx, shooting M means you will have to make adjustments accordingly. What I do is dial in my settings (bright sun), take a meter reading when the sun is behind the clouds and remember "how many clicks" (for lack of better way to explain....3 clicks whether it's 3 stops slower shutter, 3 stops opening of aperture or a combination of either), then when the sun disasppears behind a cloud, adjust my S or A. Simple? It really is once you get the hang of it. 99% of the time I rarely have exposure issues....(when I'm paying attention to what I'm doing).

Any clearer? :) :)

[Kevin]

Kevin, this is the crux of the problem for me. Your subtle hints though in this sentence seem to suggest that they are not equal.

They're not. When you background changes, shooting A or S will probably screw you up. Shooting M wont.

Care to elaborate on the book name:)
John Shaw's Nature Photographer is the book I read which explained about the "zones".

Now you are metering off the enviroment in center wieght? Why are you not using spot for this or is it simply becuase you are usually metering of the bird(in which case I understand center).
When shooting Nikon, initially I shot Matrix but ended up with too many blow out white birds. I switched to center weighted. I rarely had issue. With Canon, I immediately switched to Center Weighted. The 30D has a circle in the center of the viewfinder that is used for CW metering. To be honest, I haven't even switched to Spot Metering (don't know how--haven't read the manual). I don't really need it, but it would work the same way, just uses a smaller spot to meter from.

And generally speaking, the bulk of the birds I shoot have bodies that easily fill the CW metering circle so I'm safe metering that way. Ymmv.

[Jonathan]

Goodness kevin, crystal clear WOW thanks

[Jonathan]

Oh this is supercool; cool; cool;

[Rudi]

The 30D has a circle in the center of the viewfinder that is used for CW metering.

Kevin,

The metering circle marked out in the centre of the 30D viewfinder is actually the "Partial" metering circle. This is a different metering method from Centre-weighted and basically just larger Spot metering (the "spot" is larger - much larger!). Centre-weighted metering takes into account a larger area of the viewfinder, with an emphasis on the centre of the image. It is the metering that was mostly used in old film cameras (early 80's), unless you had one of the pro bodies.

Just to clear up any confusion... :)

[Harv]

I downloaded the manual on the 30D from Canon and have been browsing through it.

If you check page 81 in the manual, you will discover that on the 30D, that center circle is the 3.5% area that is covered by 'spot metering'. Partial metering (which on the 20D is 9.5% area) covers an area larger than spot metering but smaller than center-weighted.

I just thought this might help put these into a little clearer perspective.

[mdephoto]

Now granted, if the light is going in and out of the clouds and is in a state of influx, shooting M means you will have to make adjustments accordingly. What I do is dial in my settings (bright sun), take a meter reading when the sun is behind the clouds and remember "how many clicks" (for lack of better way to explain....3 clicks whether it's 3 stops slower shutter, 3 stops opening of aperture or a combination of either), then when the sun disasppears behind a cloud, adjust my S or A. Simple? It really is once you get the hang of it. 99% of the time I rarely have exposure issues....(when I'm paying attention to what I'm doing).

Any clearer? :) :)

Kevin, great explanation on the use of manual for tracking flying birds. I agree with your approach. I do, however find it easier to go ahead and switch to A, or sometimes S, when I am working something on the ground (like bear, deer, elk, moose, etc) and the light is bouncing around as described above. When the action gets exciting it is just too much for me to remember the clicks of either an upper wheel for or the lower wheel for each of the cameras to get the right exposure as I have found that either the 1DMkII or the 5D does a great job on either matrix or cw (depending on the scene) to risk missing the shot. I am glad that it works for you but just wanted to state that I am one of those folks that have had excellent luck using A and / or S for wildlife shots and getting a very high percentage of keepers -- you just got to know when it will work and when it won't.

[Rudi]

I downloaded the manual on the 30D from Canon and have been browsing through it.

If you check page 81 in the manual, you will discover that on the 30D, that center circle is the 3.5% area that is covered by 'spot metering'. Partial metering (which on the 20D is 9.5% area) covers an area larger than spot metering but smaller than center-weighted.

I just thought this might help put these into a little clearer perspective.

Thanks Harv! :)

I'm not intimately acquainted with the 30D focusing screen, so I will take your word for it. I had assumed that the focusing screen on the 30D would look identical, or close to, the 20D focusing screen. My bad! :D

I still assume that Kevin is talking about Partial metering, going by his comments earlier in this thread...

[Rudi]

I am glad that it works for you but just wanted to state that I am one of those folks that have had excellent luck using A and / or S for wildlife shots and getting a very high percentage of keepers -- you just got to know when it will work and when it won't.

Yep! :)

With my old D30, I *had* to shoot in M mode if I wanted to get proper exposures of any sort! I worked around this most of the time by using an incident meter (I'm surprised that no one mentioned using one of these yet!). This was a great way to do it, as long as the reading was taken in the same light as the subject happened to be. I feel that this is still the way to go if you shoot sports, and you are illuminated by the same light(s) as the action you shoot - you will not get those dark areas under baseball caps and stuff, because you metered for the actual light FALLING on the subject, not the light REFLECTING off of the subject.

But I digress - with my D30, M mode was a must. Less so with my 10D. With my 5D, most of the time I just have the camera in Centre-Weighted metering and Av mode. For the rest of the time, I use Spot metering, and once in a blue moon I might use M mode or some other. The 5D is just that good! (for what I shoot, anyway).

The important thing here is that to get the most out of your camera, you must first UNDERSTAND how it meters the scene (one reason I avoid Evaluative - too many variables, not enough consistency for my style of shooting). Once you understand how your camera "thinks", then the rest is easy! :)

My Sekonic L-358 just sits in my bag most of the time these days... so sad! :D

[David Cramer]

You will, young padawan, you will. ;)

There was a great thread at NC about this subject. I'll see if I can find it and refer you to it. It was a couple of months ago.

But here's a situation where M really pays off. I'm at Gatorland and I've taken a couple of test shots and have my shutter speed and aperture values dialed in shooting M. All of a sudden, I look up and see a beautiful Great White Egret flying through the sky. The sky is blue (which is what I metered off of initially) but has some white puffy clouds. I immediately lock focus on the bird, knowing that my exposure is correct. I continue to track the GWE as he makes his landing aproach. Oh oh....he's below the tree line. What do you suppose would happen if you were in A mode? (or S mode?) What do you think will happen in M mode?

Answer? In A or S mode, regardless of what metering you're using, the "scene" has suddenly changed from bright blue sky to now dark green foliage. Your meter is going to adjust your shutter speed to bring that dark green foliage up in lightness. What happens next? You previously beautifully exposed GWE is now going to blow! You better be quick with your EV adjustments cuz he's landing fast!!

So, what happens in M mode? Absolutely nothing! Nothing gets changed on the camera unless you deliberately change it. What does this mean? Your beautiful GWE that was exposed so perfectly against the bright blue sky will still be beautifully exposed as he descends below the tree line and ultimately comes to a rest.

End result? You shooting A or S mode will have a big white blob on your CF card because the camera got fooled by the changing background. You'll have a couple of sky shots to post. Me, meanwhile, will have a CF card full of properly exposed GWEs flying gracefully in the sky, pumping his wings as he prepares to land, and a landing sequence complete with flared wings in every imaginable position. Boy! I'm going to be busy processing my shots! ;)

Don't believe me? We'll test it out at Gatorland when you come. You'll see!

Short answer to your previous question of "what benefit?" Answer: Control!!

Now granted, if the light is going in and out of the clouds and is in a state of influx, shooting M means you will have to make adjustments accordingly. What I do is dial in my settings (bright sun), take a meter reading when the sun is behind the clouds and remember "how many clicks" (for lack of better way to explain....3 clicks whether it's 3 stops slower shutter, 3 stops opening of aperture or a combination of either), then when the sun disasppears behind a cloud, adjust my S or A. Simple? It really is once you get the hang of it. 99% of the time I rarely have exposure issues....(when I'm paying attention to what I'm doing).

Any clearer? :) :)

This is why this man could shoot JPGs and get better results than us nimwits shooting A mode RAW!!!! Great explanation, Kevin!

[Kevin]

This is why this man could shoot JPGs and get better results than us nimwits shooting A mode RAW!!!! Great explanation, Kevin!

Lol, thanks David! I forgot about that. People were amazed I only shot jpg. I was "afraid" to shoot RAW cuz I knew nothing about it. Just like I was "afraid" to shoot Manual as I knew nothing about it. For both, I've made the switch, put in the effor to learn, and will never look back.

Sorry about the confusion on the metering nomenclature. I'll have to go look which one I'm using. I'm pretty sure it's setup to use the large circle for metering.(at least that's what I use to place on the area I'm metering :o . Watch, I have it set up wrong! LOL) I thought there were only 3 metering modes, Eval, CW and Spot. Anyway, I'll look what I've got set up and report back. Principle still applies. :)

[Harv]

Great thread. Kevin, I agree with you 100%. What you say makes perfect sense if the background is likely to change. If I were in Florida with you and shooting those wonderful birds against changing backround, I'd be using M as well.

You've been very informative with your knowledge and I think have given us all something more to work with. Thanks.

[Rudi]

Incident metering, as long as you are in the same light as your subject, would also work very well in this situation. Obviously, your camera would then need to be in M mode...

Kevin, understand your reasoning behind shooting in M mode, I was just pointing out that you have another metering mode at your disposal! ;) :D

[Jonathan]

Yep! :)

With my old D30, I *had* to shoot in M mode if I wanted to get proper exposures of any sort! I worked around this most of the time by using an incident meter (I'm surprised that no one mentioned using one of these yet!). This was a great way to do it, as long as the reading was taken in the same light as the subject happened to be. I feel that this is still the way to go if you shoot sports, and you are illuminated by the same light(s) as the action you shoot - you will not get those dark areas under baseball caps and stuff, because you metered for the actual light FALLING on the subject, not the light REFLECTING off of the subject.

But I digress - with my D30, M mode was a must. Less so with my 10D. With my 5D, most of the time I just have the camera in Centre-Weighted metering and Av mode. For the rest of the time, I use Spot metering, and once in a blue moon I might use M mode or some other. The 5D is just that good! (for what I shoot, anyway).

The important thing here is that to get the most out of your camera, you must first UNDERSTAND how it meters the scene (one reason I avoid Evaluative - too many variables, not enough consistency for my style of shooting). Once you understand how your camera "thinks", then the rest is easy! :)

My Sekonic L-358 just sits in my bag most of the time these days... so sad! :D


Rudi I tossed around the idea of a lightmeter awhile back. I decided I simply don't have the time in wildlife scenarios. Maybe if I was a landscape guy...but it would be a tough call as the spot meter is getting better and better these days

[Jonathan]

This is why this man could shoot JPGs and get better results than us nimwits shooting A mode RAW!!!! Great explanation, Kevin!

He shot jpeg:rolleyes: :D I guess there is hope for me after allcool;

[Jonathan]

Great thread. Kevin, I agree with you 100%. What you say makes perfect sense if the background is likely to change. If I were in Florida with you and shooting those wonderful birds against changing backround, I'd be using M as well.

You've been very informative with your knowledge and I think have given us all something more to work with. Thanks.

Harv and others I just posted some work from this AM in M mode and was very impressed. Granted I missed some shots due to my first time out there in M but... I tried partial and regular center wieght averaged metering and prefered the partial. Time will tell though and the birds werent exactly full frame;)

[Rudi]

Rudi I tossed around the idea of a lightmeter awhile back. I decided I simply don't have the time in wildlife scenarios. Maybe if I was a landscape guy...but it would be a tough call as the spot meter is getting better and better these days

Jonathan,

The advantage of incident metering is that, if you are in the same light as your subject, it is the most accurate way to meter the light - you are metering the light falling on the subject, not reflecting off it! This will give you the most accurate results, *as long as you are in the same light as your subject*!

Spot-metering is still reflective metering, not incident!

I am a big fan of incident metering, because no exposure adjustments is necessary - it will meter the scene correctly whether the subject is pure black or pure white - because it meters the light BEFORE it hits the subject, not after it reflects off of the subject. :)

[Wulff]

information overload. :err:

Informative but sometimes confusing for someones whos learning the ropes.
With regards to mode selection. I predominantly shoot AV for wildlife and M for most everything else but Im trying to learn M for wildlife.

2 problems Im having understanding/executing M.
1) What to meter off of. Mostly Im metering the bright area of a scene. Say Im faced with a field, or overlooking a marsh. I usually meter the sky just above the horizon.

2)Wildlife doesnt stay still and the scene can change dramatically in fractions of a second. Kevin while I appreciate your anology with regards to changing backgrounds, that doesnt (or does it) apply when the light changes. Same scenario but insted of the landing bird moving from bright sky into a dark BG, it moves from bright sky into the shade cast by trees, marsh grasss etc or vice versa. Im blowing alot of shots when messing around with M, either badly over/under exposed.

I "think" I've discovered a happy medium to use for now.
In an effort to learn I'm trying to shoot things in M, but if for some reason I'm unsure about my ability to expose properly Ive gotten used to switching to AV ( 1 stop down on the dial) in a hurry. So if trying to shoot BiF but the scene might change as it comes in low, or its a hawk I simply dont want to blow I can switch to AV on the fly and vice versa to my preset M settings.

With regards to metering modes. Alot depends on the physical layout for me but I generally use spot or center weighted. No incident meter on the 30D (whatever that is). Either way as a general rule Im trying to apply the readings from Bryan Petersons "understanding exposure" (my bible). Which by and large with a few exceptions tanslates to Meter off the sky :)

[Bobby]

John, I was going to provide to you "your bible" it is an excellent reference on exposure. As you are aware he has a few simple tips for getting exposure right. Constant blue sky metering at 90 degrees to the sun gives the right exposure providing the subject is in the same light. Metering off green grass or similarly coloured objects will be accurate if exposure is then dropped to -2/3.

One of the best tips is his "who cares apertures". F8 or F11. This is when DOF is unimportant. I believe this reference material explains all aspects of exposure very well. Certainly works for me. Having come from the old Film and Slide days when exposures were a lot more critical (slide 1/2 stop tops for error). I believe post processing has made a whole generation of photographers a lot more reliant on their PP than getting it right in the camera.

There is also a common misconception that metering a subject with colours it is OK to be underexposed say, 1/2 to a full stop and still get a good result with PP. Not necessarily so as the colour that is recorded darker than it is will not get more vibrant or become the colour that it actually was. It will only get "Brighter". I am a strong believer that understanding your metering modes and your camera and how it handles them is critical to proper exposures. And John incident metering is best explained as light metered falling on the subject and not reflected off it. One of the best incident meteres used to be a styrofoam cup over the lens pointed back to the camera location.

Hope this doesn't muddy the waters.

[Kevin]

2 problems Im having understanding/executing M.
1) What to meter off of. Mostly Im metering the bright area of a scene. Say Im faced with a field, or overlooking a marsh. I usually meter the sky just above the horizon.
The sky or grass works. If I'm shooting flying birds, I may use the sky to meter off of. Generally, I'll use the bird's body. If I'm shooting a large white bird, I place the center circle (in the viewfinder) over the body then adjust my shutter until the meter needle is about +1. Same for a darker bird...just dial down to -1. Then I'll check my shutter speed. In some cases then I'll readjust my aperture from what I had it set.

2)Wildlife doesnt stay still and the scene can change dramatically in fractions of a second. Kevin while I appreciate your anology with regards to changing backgrounds, that doesnt (or does it) apply when the light changes. Same scenario but insted of the landing bird moving from bright sky into a dark BG, it moves from bright sky into the shade cast by trees, marsh grasss etc or vice versa. Im blowing alot of shots when messing around with M, either badly over/under exposed.
I think I mentioned the changing light scenario. It does make it more difficult but not impossible. If I'm tracking a flying bird and it goes into shade, if I have time to react, I'll adjust the shutter, otherwise I'll worry about it during pp. There's not much else you can do in M. The scenario you describe is handled better by shooting A mode. I just wonder if you have -ec dialed in when the bird is in the bright sun, don't you still need to make an adjustment when the same bird flies into the shade? (to +ec?). On the 30D, that's a button push and a dial turn. Shooting manual, I only have to worry about a dial turn. ;)

[Roger]

I am still at a loss Kevin:) Admittedly I haven't "forum researched this." Basically the way I see it its time consuming. What is the difference when I can use A or S with some EV comp? I can still expose for the whites or blacks and I am dialed in to exactly what I want. Main reason I ask is I have stumbled across a few more nature pros that shoot this way. As an aside Jim Zuckerman does not. Mostly in reference to Wildlife .



Discuss.......fight1; fight1; :banned1:

I have book about exposure. It indicates that in any given situation, their could be more than one correct exposure, but there is only one creative or more to the point, near perfect exposure for each shot. More than likely, your set camera mode will get a correct exposure, but will it automatically pick the absolute best settings for that picture? Something like this is what M is made for, when you get to the point of understanding more than one way to get a given pictures to turn out correctly. Then you can use M to dial that in on any given time / place and you have your picture.

Now, I am no way saying I am even close to being able to do that. I use the preset modes because I do not know when to select what, other than if I want more depth of field or a faster shot.

[Jonathan]

Hi john, I will just add to kevin's comment on questions number 1. If I am out shooting wildife one of the first things I will do is find something to meter off of. Always look for something middle-toned or similar to 18%grey. Examples being your blue sky(which works better directly opposite the sun). Middle tones grass,autumn leaves, bark,docks etc.

Also a lot will depend on the species and how much they reflect. For example black animals like black bears will require a lot more than an average reading. You will probably have to dial in a full stop(open up). Remeber the black needs more exposure so you open up the lens. Opposite goes for species like egrets which are mostly white. I

f you have a high dynamic/contrast scene you often times have to pic what is most important to you. trying to find a medium between animal and scene or blowing out one or the other. Creative control!! This is where time of day becomes important because if you are shooting species like bears in the snow or egrets in the dead of day its just not going to work. Having the sun at a low angle will provide you with better exposure.

HTH

[Rudi]

Welcome to the wonderful world of wedding photography! Bride in a white dress, groom in a black tux... smile everyone! alcohol; :D

[Jonathan]

Welcome to the wonderful world of wedding photography! Bride in a white dress, groom in a black tux... smile everyone! alcohol; :D

Doesent everyone know?? expose for the bride, expose for the bride:):devil:

[tived]

I know this is going to sound like a bit of a novelty, but does anyone here use a lightmeter?

and no one is using the Professionel mode "P" shocked;

sorry, I couldn't help myself. Though the first one is a valid one.

Henrik

[Rudi]

Doesent everyone know?? expose for the bride, expose for the bride:):devil:

Only because the guys are not so critical, and won't start crying if they can't make out the details in their pure-black tux... :D

[Kevin]

I know this is going to sound like a bit of a novelty, but does anyone here use a lightmeter?


I had a lightmeter that I was beginning to use with my studio lights, but not for outdoors. I mostly shoot birds and birds in flight so there's no time really to meter with a handheld unit. I'll usually meter off the sky and take a couple of test shots to dial in my settings then I'm off. :)

[Rudi]

I still have a meter. Don't use it much with the 5D because it's so good at metering and exposure, BUT... I will still take it with me if there is an important shoot and I might be able to dial in a proper exposure for the entirety (or most of) the shoot.

Also, I made the mistake of looking at some Elinchrom strobes, softboxes, umbrellas and kit yesterday... I am proud to say that I haven't bought them (yet) :) But if I do ever cave in, my incident meter is also a flash meter, so it's all good!