What Printer IPF5000, Espon 3800, HP 9810

[MorrieC]

I've been looking at printers and am quite confused.

I like the prints all of these printers, the Canon IPF5000, the Epson 3800 and the HP9810.

Lets start with the Epson 3800, it will print up to 17" wide prints but the price is $1295. Epson discount codes are available and you can get at least 10% off this price. Due to the fact this printers comes with a full set of Ink Cartridges which are about a $400 it is actually about the same price as an Epson R2400 (a 13" wider printer) which is around $850.00 and only comes with trial ink cartridges. The ink price per ML is much less with the 3800 printer.

The Canon IPF5000 is a beast it weighs 100 lbs and competes with the Epson4800 printer and is considered to be professional printer. It is a 12 ink printer and prints 17" wide and has a roll feeder for paper. This printer normally has a list price of $1895 and could be purchased for around $1795. The reason I am interested in this printer is it has very large ink cartridges and iis on closeout at several on line stores for around $995.00 delivered. From what I have read on the canonwiki it prints very well but has a few quirks that you have to get used to. The IPF5000 is being replaced by a new printer IPF5100 that addresses some of the issues the IPF5000 has.

The HP 9810 looks like a great printer and is much cheaper than the ones above and can be purchased for around $600.00 + ink. The 9810 is limited to 13" wide prints. Not sure about the longevity of the prints on paper other than HP. I have not been able to find this info out.

It would be nice to print larger prints than 13" from time to time but this would probably not be very often. The longevity of the prints from all of these printers is very good. There are other printers I have not even mentions from Canon, Epson and HP that should be considered. The 17" wide print is very tempting.

Is anyone using the Epson 3800 or Canon IPF5000. I had an older Epson and a lot of print head clogging. Has this been resolved with the newer printers?

Any suggestion and comments are welcomed.
Morrie

[Rudi]

Epson 3800! I have yet to see another brand neat my Epson prints... I would be especially careful with the Canon - as much as I like Canon cameras, I have never been able to print without micro-banding when using Canon printers (and I really wanted to buy a Canon printer). I have since checked out Canon printers at every trade show that I attend, and they still show this micro-banding, after two generations of printers!

You can't beat the Epson 3800 at that price! The Epson printers are not perfect, there are things that drive me crazy about them, but print quality is not one of them. :)

[MorrieC]

Hi Rudi

Thanks for the imput. I am going to stop by the local dealer and check them out in the AM. The Canon, Epson and HP are all getting good reviews.

Morrie

[Robert]

I'm about to purchase the 3800...although the 2400 is tempting. Be aware that it will set you back almost $1000.00 to replace the ink cartridges in the 3800. Yes, it will print 17", but if that size isn't vital, then the 2400 may be a more attractive purchase. The ink replacement for the 2400 is @ $ 150.00, and the quality is similar...at least that's what I've been told.

[Rudi]

The 3800 is actually the cheaper printer, once you take the price of the included printer cartridges into account - that is why it will be my next printer! You get $1000 worth of ink when you purchase, and that is way more than the price difference between the two models. So... why not get a 17" printer, right? You don't have to print large, but it's nice to have the ability to do so, especially when the cost per print is lower. Yes, the replacement cartridges are expensive, but they are also much larger than the cartridges for the 2400 or the 1800, so the printing works out cheaper as a result.

EDIT: The cheapest place that I have found in Oz has the Epson 3800 for $812 AUD more than the Epson R2400. They sell the whole 9-cart ink set for $799 (discounted - the cartridges are $95 each if you don't buy a full set, and there are NINE of them!). That means that, worst case scenario, I can get the 3800 for only $13 more than the 2400 (I know the 2400 has some ink included, but AFAIK it's not a genuine full set - the carts are not filled right up, like new carts would be). So... while the 3800 might be a few dollars more, I think it represents incredible value!

[Robert]

Rudi,

I'm aware of the difference in ink supplied with the new printers and yes, the 3800 is a great deal initially but, (and I may have incorrect info about this)...the kicker comes when you consider, as I have been told, that the 2400 will print approximatelly the same number of prints as the 3800 and so the big expense starts when it's time for a refill. If it costs about $850,00 more to fill the 3800 each time it would then seem that the 2400 is by far more cost effective. Printers can last a long time.
I'll make some more inquiries soon and post what I discover.
Thanks! :)

[Rudi]

I'm not aware of the 3800 being an ink waster, Robert. Do you mean that the 2400 will print the exact same number of prints OF THE SAME SIZE as the 3800? If so, I would think that there would be an outcry from customers - of course, if it means that the 3800 will use more ink while printing large prints, then of course it will! :)

I'd be interested to hear more, if anyone has any info, please share.

P.S. Robert, if ultimate ink savings are a requirement for you, the Epson R1800 has a 1.5 picolitre (minimum) droplet size. Just like my R800 (the R1800 is the big brother), and I love my R800 - best photo printer that I have ever used - easy to use, fast, and spits out great prints. It will also readily hook up to a CIS (continuous inking system), although I have never gone that route (I just don't trust third-party inks).

[Robert]

Rudi,

I haven't been able to get any more info but will ask some questions tomorrow at the store. There are several there who are quite familiar with the 3800 and 2400. It was suggested that both printers will print roughly the same amount per ink load, but really, as you mention, that doesn't make much sense, especially because the 3800 tanks are much larger.
Saving ink isn't a priority for me Rudi, but the thought of dropping the better part of a grand to refill...:swoon: I'm not familiar with the R800 or 1800. I'll look into those too. Thanks for mentioning them. I'll check them out! :)

[MorrieC]

Ink cartridges do not run out at the same time. I'm sure there is a way to monitor them and purchase only the cartridge that is running low. This way you will probably have fresher ink than buying them all at once keeping them on the shelf until one runs out.

I am leaning towards getting the 3800 and hopefully will make a decision within the next couple of weeks.


Morrie

[Robert]

Yes Morrie, I think that's a good point. If a particular run uses more cyan etc then that cartridge will need replacing sooner of course. My concern was with ink cartridges drying up, but I was told that as long as the unit is off when not in use the startup mainenance will kick in and the ink should be stable.
I had a visit to the local store and it seems that the 3800 prints actually cost less than the 2400...because a 20 ml cartridge costs @ $20.00, while an 80 ml cartridge for the 3800 runs @ $60.00...a $ 20.00 savings.

I was wrong when I suggested that the cost operating the 3800 is higher it seems. At any rate, I'll be ordering a 3800 soon.

You may find this discussion helpful. http://www.nikoncafe.com/vforums/showthread.php?t=129014

[MorrieC]

I do not remember what forum I read this on but someone suggested if the printer sits for a long period of time they removed the cartridges and shook them. The theory was the ink would remix and produce better photos.

I have also been considering the Epson 3800 but may wait a couple of months to see if there are any rumors about an update to this printer. They are going to a x880 series on the sister printers, so this makes me wonder if the 3800 will soon be updated to the 3880.

Morrie

[Rudi]

I had a chat with my dealer on the phone today (photo gear dealer, not a drug dealer :D), and asked him the same thing. His take on it was that the x880 line is an "update" to the pro line - the 4800 and up, and that it's unlikely that we will see anything new below that. This guy has never steered me wrong, not on purpose, anyway. I am too good a customer to lose for a short term gain, so this was not just a ploy to get me to buy soon. :) Of course, if you wait long enough, there WILL be an upgrade... eventually! :D

[Rudi]

Just FYI - I ordered the Epson Pro 3800 yesterday, and it will be here tomorrow. From all the reviews and tests that I can find online, the 3800 seems to be the best choice (IMO) in that size (17" wide, or A2 size), unless you are doing constant high-volume printing. The fact that it is pretty much a free upgrade over the 2400 (an A3 printer) once you take the cost of inks into account, that's just a bonus! :D

Morrie, if you do decide to get the Epson Pro 3800, the best online resource that I found is Eric Chan's Epson 3800: Printer Notes and Resources. (http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html) Pretty much everything you ever wanted to know about the 3800, and then some! :)

[imageswest]

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[Rudi]

I've owned a number of Epson printers over the years, and with all the head clogging, banding, pizza-wheel marks, stale-date cartridge issues, ink waste, cost of RIP's and custom profiles, poor customer service, etc., etc., I would be very reluctant to buy another one.

Unfortunately for Epson, they have a way to go until the head clogging problems of the past are forgotten. But... my last two Epsons never clogged up at all, ever, and from everything that I have read online, the 3800 should be as good or better than those two models. So it seems that clogging is a thing of the past... While the 3800 can't do panoramas natively, there are several third party RIPs that will enable panorama printing. And the last and most important reason why I chose Epson yet again - print quality! I have yet to see another inkjet printer match my Epson prints. That, added with the K3 inks, which are some of the most archival inks on the planet right now, and the fact that the Epsons are the most widely-supported printers out there (both third party software and papers, etc), that makes them the most versatile choice, IMO. All the fine art printing houses around here use them - anything from the 4800 to the 9800. When HP came out with their new line, I asked one of the owners if he was considering buying the HP, seeing the good reviews the units got online - I can't tell you what he said on a family-friendly forum, but let's just say that he was not interested. :D

YMMV, of course, but I'm happy with my decision. :)

[imageswest]

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[Rudi]

He's not my friend, just someone that owns and runs a fine art printing service. He knew about the large format HP printers, but the folks buying them around here are Real Estate Agents, for their advertising banners. He did not think that they were up to snuff compared to his Epsons, and considering that he prints stuff for artists in local (Sydney and south coast) exhibitions, and that I have seen his work, I have no reason not to believe him. He does not know everything, but the one thing he does know is printing...

Maybe things have changed in the last year, but I doubt that they changed enough that Epson printers would no longer be competitive... I've seen the output of the latest Canon printers, and the Epson prints still look better! I have to admit that I haven't even looked at the HP output. Not that it would make any difference - I can't get a 17" wide HP that provides the same price/performance ratio as the 3800! :)

[Rudi]

Printer arrived today. First impressions -

1) The 3800 is BIG, but its footprint is only a little bit more than my old 1290 (which is an A3 printer).

2) The Epson-supplied ICC profiles are so much better than anything else they've ever sent out with my previous printers. At this stage, all my prints are dead-on, and all I'm using are the Epson-supplied profiles...

3) Print quality is great, and I have not had time to really get to know the printer yet. At the moment I am printing on glossy media (not my favourite), but even that looks good... can't wait to start printing some matte prints (soon :D).

So far, so good! :) At the moment, I am printing through the USB interface, but plan to connect the printer via Ethernet in the future (needed some prints for clients this week, so did not have time to experiment today, simple USB had to do). Not sure what else I can add, it's only early days, but the printer and its output is as good as any I have seen. If you're thinking about getting a new printer and looking at A3 size, look at the 3800 - you just might go up to A2! :)

Here it is, with smaller A4 printers behind it (an Epson R800 photo printer and a Samsung laser office printer). BTW, that is an A3 print coming out of the printer... :D

I am going to have to buy a larger paper cutter... rolleyes;

http://www.rudiphoto.net/img/v2/p576611661.jpg

[MorrieC]

I have been doing a lot of research on wide format printers and Epson 3800 does look like the top choice for many of the reason that have been stated. The choice to purchase a large 17" printer has become much harder than I anticipated. Space requirements, usage, cost of inks, paper choices, work flow the list is quite long.

It seems once you jump to a 17" printer you have now have more ability to print fine art type of prints. Not only due to the size of the print but also from paper selection and the quality of the print itself appears to go up. This may be due to the paper and how the printers I have looked at have been set up.

I have not yet purchased a printer but hope to within the next month or two.

Canons educational program Explorer of Lights is having a printmaster seminar with Vincent Laforet (one of Canon's photographers) in early November that I'm going to attend. I'm sure it will be very biased towards Canon printers but
I should be able to pick up some info that will be universal among all printers.

Rudi, you have supplied great info about the Epson 3800. I think it is a very fine printer and it's on my short list to buy.

Thanks
Morrie

[ricwis]

Morrie,
I am looking at printers too and talked to Bill (Not sure if you know Bill (retief)) but he has the HP B9180 and really likes it. I have seen the output and it is excellent. The prints are outstanding and he tells me the printer is very good with ink usage.

One of my main objectives is to print panoramas so this leaves out the Canon printers as they have no sub $1K printer that will do them. I also eliminated the Epson printers because of ink usage and the amount that is used in cleaning and maintenance. Since I don't print every day, this could be a problem for me. That basically leaves HP.

Haven't seen any panorama prints from the HP. The reviews are really good. Michael Reichmann over at Luminous Landscape reviewed the HP.

[Mickey]

A full set of ink cartridges for the 3800 from Atlex (genuine Epson) is $431.91

[Rudi]

Yup. And they last a LOOOONG time.... :)

It's one of the pitfalls of buying a large format printer - you WILL use more ink to print the large prints (they are a much larger area), but my Epson 3800 is cheaper to run than any previous inkjet that I owned. And considering that a new printer includes a full set of cartridges (not a starter set), the 17" printer works out about the same price, if not cheaper than, many 13" wide printers out there. After that, the ink is cheaper, too... the smaller printers have smaller cartridges!

[MorrieC]

Morrie,
I am looking at printers too and talked to Bill (Not sure if you know Bill (retief)) but he has the HP B9180 and really likes it. I have seen the output and it is excellent. The prints are outstanding and he tells me the printer is very good with ink usage.

One of my main objectives is to print panoramas so this leaves out the Canon printers as they have no sub $1K printer that will do them. I also eliminated the Epson printers because of ink usage and the amount that is used in cleaning and maintenance. Since I don't print every day, this could be a problem for me. That basically leaves HP.

Haven't seen any panorama prints from the HP. The reviews are really good. Michael Reichmann over at Luminous Landscape reviewed the HP.

Hi Rich

I have visited with Bill about his HP 9180 and he is very happy with it but I really want to make the move to a 17" printer. I have spent a lot of time researching printers and the cost per page for ink is less with a 17" printer than it is with a 13" printer but the ink refills are quite expensive when compared to some 13" printers.

The Espon 3800 seems to be a very good printer but does not have a paper roll attachment. This printer is selling for around $1200.

The Canon IPF5000 is a steal at this time. There are several online stores that are selling this printer for around $995 and a set of spare set of ink cartridges are another $400, the regular price for the ink alone is over $900 . The ink cartridges are very large 130ml. The IPF 5000 has had some issues and has very poor documentation. If you are willing to do your homework this is a great price for a printer that some people really like but it is huge in size.

I'm really leaning towards the Epson printer and hope to make a decision next week.

Morrie

[Jim Thiel]

Rich, sorry to be so late jumping in. I too have the HP 9180 and it is a huge improvement over the old epson I used. I mean old, it was the 780 model I believe. May be more to do with technology advacements than printers.

The reason I am jumping in is that if you are wanting to print pano's I would think twice about getting the HP. It does not have any special pano set up for paper. I think you would have to hand hold the paper but I am not sure. I have some old pano Epson paper and I could try it if you like. You are welcome to come to my house and try it as well. Hope all is well with you.

[Robert]

I have only printed a few shots on my new 3800 and I'm fairly well blown away...and that's without tweaking any of the settings. I still have to learn about profiles etc, and I have the ColorBurst RIP software that I am puzzled about. I'm hoping someone can give me some pointers using the RIP because there isn't any info with it.
I've had great results with Ultra Premium Lustre, up to 13 X 19 and I have some 17 X 22 stock on order. I should try the new Exhibition paper which I've read provides stellar B&Whites.